Russ Gaede

Russell C. Gaede, PsyD, is a consultant, mediator, and therapist with over two decades of experience specializing in trauma and complex human behavior. Holding degrees in Administration of Justice, business, and Clinical Psychology, Dr. Russ blends academic rigor with practical, boots-on-the-ground experience. Having overcome significant personal hurdles—including a high school departure and a diagnosis of Tourette Syndrome—he offers a unique perspective on human potential, rehabilitation, and what it means to walk with others. He is author of "Playing 20 Questions with your Fiancé".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjjdzck6y8&t=1s

https://www.espeakers.com/marketplace/profile/23392/russell-gaede

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Hello and welcome back to I'll Walk With You, the podcast where we have conversations all about how we can be more unified on our walk through life together. My name is Dakota Moses.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

I'm Rhonda Monson, and this is our guest, Russ Gatti. I met Russ when we first went to Kenya on a humanitarian trip before my husband and I served a mission. Russ was in that same humanitarian group, and I will say that that group like has become some of my dearest, greatest friends. We had um the Macintoshes on an episode of this podcast, and now we're having Russ. And one of the things that kind of bonded us, not everyone in the group, but most of us have a kiddo in the LGBTQ community, which just kind of opened us up, like we really related to each other. We were all for this particular group, members of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints, and with big hearts for the LGBTQ community. And finding people unified in that for me is huge. So I'm super happy to have you here. Um, Russ is also a mental health counselor, so we have that in common and does great work helping people and has written a book and has accomplished great things. He's a marathon runner, but he's slowing down a little bit. And we'll let you introduce yourself a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yes, I I do enjoy. I've I've read a couple marathons, a lot of half marathons, and a few triathlons. And yes, I I I do enjoy that. And as you mentioned, going to Kenya together was amazing. Since then, we've visited each other several times and and um hung out quite a bit. So it's it's it's been fun.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

Yeah, it has.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

It has changed my life. That trip changed my life in many ways. Obviously, we went on a mission in Kenya, but the friendships that we've gained and the connection knowing that we're not alone, it's just changed my life. It's been so good. I think the connections and you need to go go with Becky. She's always like, come with my expedition group. So you go with Becky.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

That'd be amazing. I think our friend the friendships that we created was probably the most powerful for me.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Me too.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

I mean, seeing seeing driving down the roads in Kenya and just seeing the difference in culture and difference in uh way of life was pretty powerful as well.

unknown 3:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

We're going back. We're going back to visit. But anyhow, we want to dive into the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I was gonna say, real quick about Kenya, one one of the things that stuck out to me the most was their sense of direction. From the standpoint of the one day where we just went off into the bush, and it was like, how do you know where you're going? And we drove what a half hour into the middle of what to me looked like nowhere, and we turn a corner and boom, there's homes.

SPEAKER_05 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

They knew exactly where they were.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

And I I kind of take that as an analogy of not only knowing where you are physically, but knowing where you are in life. And being able to put your trust in other people that you don't necessarily know super well, but they have a different perspective, and being able to understand their perspective, accept their perspective, and just kind of go with the flow a little bit. And you learn something new and something great happens.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's a beautiful analogy and tying into this podcast, actually. Um, walking with others and trusting. Yeah. Trusting their story. Because it's so important to trust someone's stories, so important to trust people's experiences that they're real for them. You know, that we don't have all the answers for everyone all the time.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

And under and understanding that everybody's story is so different that we don't know. We don't know people's stories, really. Yeah. I mean, I've lived in this home where I live, where Jennifer and I live now for almost seven years, and we become really good friends with our neighbors. We see each other almost daily. Um, I go on a walk with him multiple times a week because he worked from home. I work from home, and we know each other. And inevitably, he'll look at me and go, huh, I didn't know that about you. You know, it we just don't know each other's stories fully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

It would be impossible to, like you said, someone you see almost every day. Doug and I were married. We've been married almost five years. We're still learning about each other. We're still, you know, and it's it's beautiful. I love that. You know, we don't know each other's stories. And to assume that we know everything about everyone is false.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Yeah, my wife and I, Jennifer and I have been married next next month will be 34 years. Wow. And I I keep telling her stories, and she'll go, I didn't, I'm I don't think I've ever heard that one before. It's like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Well, you have a lot of stories to tell.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

I don't know if that's good or bad. Yeah, I I do have an interesting growing up.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Yeah. You did.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I grew up LDS, member of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latterly Saints, but I attended the Baptist private school.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

My extended family to this day are Mennonite brethren. I would hang out with my cousin at their events. I went to vacation Bible school uh with the the the uh friend across the street. Um I've taken a world religion class in at the University of Utah and have have studied, and I I really like religion. Yeah. But it's so very different um from each other. Yes. But if you really boil it down to what the core values are, they're really the same. But we want to fight against that. We we we we tend to, oh, you're different. So I can't. Yeah. And just being able to go with that walk right there is is is I've enjoyed. In fact, Jennifer and I um in the past couple of years went to midnight mass for Christmas just to experience something different.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

So just being able to walk with others in that way.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

So what was it like being a kid going to a Christian school?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Tough.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

I was the other. Yeah. I was heavily othered.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

And you know, we we and as I've looked back, I I guess I can say that I've been othered on multiple things, not only for for that, I have Tourette's, and so I twitch a lot, and there are some fun stories from there. But it what's interesting, most of the conflict that people experience in life, as I've gotten older, I said it was tough, as I've gotten older, I've realized the benefit, or I've taken taken away the with me the benefit of of that walk.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

But I remember asking a girl out, and she said, No, I only date Christians. It's like, hmm, okay, so lack of understanding, yeah. But most conflict comes from that lack of understanding, and I think that lack of understanding often causes fear, and we can bring that all the way around into just about every area I can think of, you know, whether it's LGBT, whether it's religion, whether it's politics, we we fear the unknown.

SPEAKER_06 10:00

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

And if we just uh step into the unknown or take both of us out of that to a neutral spot to understand each other, I I think that's where not only diversity happens, but understanding and love.

SPEAKER_06 10:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

So as I was thinking about the that, you know, the the othering, it it seems like if we get othered, we want to other someone else.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

We're not the bottom of the totem, uh uh bottom of the the you know the pyramid.

SPEAKER_05 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

And I see that a lot with groups, certain groups of people that have traditionally been othered. They will turn around and other the ones that are othering them that they're complaining about.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

And you know, and sometimes I guess sit back and scratch my head and go, you're doing exactly what you don't want done to you.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

How can we change that to bring us together?

SPEAKER_05 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Well, how do you think we can change that and bring us back together?

SPEAKER_03 11:37

You know, I I I think a lot of it begins with communication. Yes. You know, in my professional field, I've worked with I'm a former juvenile probation officer, and I worked with uh juvenile sex offenders. I've worked in jails, I've worked in prisons, I've I've worked for the Department of Corrections for a number of years, working one-on-one with with offenders. So I've been able to and as a therapist been able to sit and listen to other people.

SPEAKER_05 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

And I think that's really the answer. I think the answer would come down to validation. And I think we misunderstand validation a lot. Validation doesn't mean I agree with you, but validation means I hear you. I understand what you're saying. I'm listening to your story, and I'm accepting your story as your story. Yeah. For for me, and this can this could be a whole multi-hour discussion and of itself, but for me, I I have an acronym that I've learned uh that I've created for resolving conflict or understanding each other. It's bacon is the acronym. Everything's better with bacon, right? But bacon stands for B is balanced communication. And that balanced communication comes from listening, comes from taking turns. Um, A is attitude. What attitude do we go into a conversation with? If it's a disagreement or a conflict, is it one like, oh, here we go again? Or is it one of we got this? Or is it one of, oh, I know you're XYZ, so therefore you must be ABC. What kind of preconceived attitudes do we go in with? But if we can have balanced communication going with a positive attitude, then the C I think is probably the most important one. Curiosity.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Be curious. Yeah. Ask questions, understand why somebody believes the way they believe or lives the way they live, or what have you. Be curious. Always be open to new ideas and perspectives, and that's where understanding comes in. Okay, I I can understand why you do that. Great. And then, and if needed, there's negotiation. But I think there's always a negotiation, whether it's a agree to just understand each other. It's not always uh, okay, you do this, I do that, as in negotiation. It's uh how are we gonna treat this going forward?

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Yeah. So how was it for you when you first decided to go um apply for a job, juvenile detention? Like, were you like a little bit nervous? Were you anxious? Were you excited? Where were you at with that?

SPEAKER_03 15:31

I my associate's degree is administration of justice.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

So I already had my associate's degree in the field. I understood the field. Um, and and so it wasn't wasn't scary at all for me.

SPEAKER_06 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

I was actually excited because it's something that I wanted to try. It's something I wanted to do. And so as I was doing the the typical juvenile probation stuff, you know, drugs, theft, things like that, the person in her office that handled uh sex offenses, he moved to a different office. And so I left that open. And I willingly I volunteered to step up and understand that. Yeah. Which was interesting because during around the same time, I was also working with volunteering with the rape recovery center.

unknown 16:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Where some when when somebody was taken to the hospital, they would call us. I would be the one to show up in the middle of the night and you know, hold the person's hand, talk to them, help them understand what was gonna happen and be with them during that the the examinations and things.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

And so I was really seeing both sides of the of the the coin too.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Working with the offend working with offenders, but also helping offendees.

unknown 17:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Did you ever feel a conflict in that?

SPEAKER_03 17:16

I did not because I was able to understand both sides better.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Okay.

unknown 17:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

I think that societally there my my mom and I have talked about this quite a bit. There is such a um an incredible stigma around um sex offenders and um who they are as as people and um how individuals deem, I guess, just of consequences that they should have to face. Or um or just anger and and misunderstanding that is that is against them. Um I would love for to hear just more of your perspective um of what it was like for you to hold space for for both sides and um how you have personally found a balance between um justice and compassion and mercy.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Well, that's a that that's a uh a deep dive. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

You know, I have found that for me and and Roy, I believe this across the board, balance doesn't mean 50-50. Because when we look at a balance to begin with, um we we don't have time to do everything the same in equal amounts. And so balance to me isn't an an equal. And so with that in mind, after real quick to add a little bit to this, after I was a probation officer, I left there because I um earned my master's and and started doing therapy, I moved into a position where I was doing therapy for adult and juvenile uh sex offenders. Some of the adults were awaiting sentencing um and they were doing therapy in the meantime, and so I I do have that broad range, but expanding it even just to offenders. I think in in in in society, we uh we love to say once they're done with their sentence, they've paid their debt to society. But that's really not the way it is, unfortunately. We hold it over their heads. Um somebody who's been to prison now has to find felon-friendly housing, friendly felon-friendly jobs, and there's a lot that people don't realize that they can't do.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

And we we we hold that. I understand that perspective, but I also feel that we need to give more grace and understanding to allow people to get jobs and have a place to live. Sometimes some things, yes, need to stick with them, but understanding where where they're at now in life versus where they were at. For instance, I in one of the places I have lived, it's not my current home, one of the places I lived, somebody moved in next door and they were on the sex registry for offending.

SPEAKER_06 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Well, neighbors were like coming to me, like, did you know? It's like, okay. And I just walked over, knocked on his door, and said, Hey, this is what I'm being told, this is what I know. Tell me more. And he told me, and okay. It was something that he had done prison time years before. He had done all that, he hadn't had any problems. Since he was still on the registry, but he was still my neighbor, right? And we never talked about it again, and there was never any issues. Um, understanding, going, he knows people are gonna find out, he knows he's probably gonna get talked to about for life. But I had that conversation with him, and then the mercy comes with not holding it over his head and shunning him.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Because, you know, great guy. He just had that one area in his life that wasn't so great.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah. Yeah. How have you in within your line of work at the time, um, when you were working directly with um with offenders specifically in the in the midst of them facing that justice uh more immediately, uh more presently, where it there isn't this displacement of time and space between um you know what happened and now where it was more present, more immediate. Um help us and um and our listeners understand what that was like and maybe help us get into maybe your perspective uh but also into the minds of those who um are in the midst of that presently.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

I for some reason, I say for some reason, it's more purposeful than happenstance, I have had really good relationships with a lot of the offenders I worked with. One of them, yeah, I remember one story that, you know, I I worked at a halfway house for uh a lot of my time. And so they were released to prison, they'd be on um parole, and when they violated, instead of going back to prison, they'd come see me for 90 to 120 days. And I'd always end, you know, talking with one of them like, you know, I hope I I don't ever want to see you in in this place again.

SPEAKER_06 24:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

And they understood that they probab many would come back, but a lot of them didn't. And I had a good enough relationship with one guy that I I told him I'd have to kick his butt if I ever saw him here again. Well, about three months later, he was head uh he was being escorted to his uh an office to talk with one of the officers, and happened to come right by my office. And he he said, just a minute, stuck his head in, you know, lowered his head and said, Do we need to have a talk? Like, yes, we do, you know. But it was just that open communication that he and I had, open relationship that he and I had, he understood my role and what I needed to do, and I understood his role and and how we as humans make mistakes. That we all something happens, you know, there's only been one perfect person that's ever walked this earth, and the rest of us, we deal with mistakes every day. And I I I my perspective is I look at them as number one in in my belief, everyone down here on earth is a child of God. And so if I can view them and see them as a child of God first and foremost, and then understand them as how they act, it it seems to for me, I can separate the two. So I can accept you as a child of God, but doesn't mean I I fully embrace what you did. And and and so for me, again, it goes back to that validation. I'm going to sit with them in the place that they're at rather than just dragging them to where we want them to be. Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Right. I'm I'm sitting here and I I feel myself like tensing up a little bit. And I've also worked with sex offenders who I actually found that I had a lot of compassion for and stuff like that. But I'm sitting here, I've been doing women's work most of my adult life through women's retreats and now mental health counseling. I mainly work with women. I have worked with men, but mainly work with women, and I'm finding myself like defensive. And I and I like thinking of these women who because so many, so many, and I'll say of us have been assaulted. So many of us have been assaulted. And so I I'm gonna chime in for them. What what do you say to them? What do you say to the women who are gonna listen to this episode who are getting prickly, who are uh feeling a little bit like yeah, you know one thing changing the uh the scenario a little bit, I would never have an uh alcoholic work in a bar or work in a liquor store.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Don't give them the opportunity to do it again. And that's where that justice comes from part comes in, yeah, is not allowing them to be in the position to have the opportunity to perpetrate again.

SPEAKER_05 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

So yeah, there's certain jobs I I think uh sex offender should never have again. I'm I'm I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

But it's more it's also not only protecting others, but it's also protecting them.

SPEAKER_06 28:50

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

And what's interesting is I had female juvenile sex offenders on my caseload.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

You know, so we we tend to stereotype all sex offenders as males.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

Yep. That's a great point for sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

But yes, I it it it it it is a uh, like you said, a prickly conversation. But I didn't have I can't remember how young my children were when we lived next door to the the the the gentleman who was on the registry, but I would have never sent them over individually to know. So it's protection for everybody involved. And it's okay to get a little tense.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Mm-hmm. I remember when they first um when I was working at community mental health, and they put someone who was gonna go to federal prison, and he was like in that in-between wait time um on my caseload, and I was like, oh I don't want to work with this person, literally was my thought. I I didn't want to work with him. And of course had to staff that a lot and ended up working with him and um similar, I just found just the humanness in him, right? Um the brokenness in him. Um, I found myself just having a lot of compassion for him as a human, as a child of God. Um, definitely there needed to be consequences. There were consequences. He's going to go to federal prison, huge consequences. Um, and they needed to be because of the crime that he did.

SPEAKER_06 30:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

And yet it was really good for me to see him as a human. It was really good for me. I don't, I hope he gains something out of, you know, our therapeutic relationship. I absolutely gained something out of our therapeutic relationship. It was really good for me to be reminded of the child of God that sat across from me, of the human that sat across from me. Yeah, you know, that had experienced his own trauma and his own things, you know, not justifying what he did, but yet justifying his pain, justifying his suffering, justifying all these other parts that led to. And so, um, yeah, it's a rough topic. Like not one I was expecting that we were gonna go to today. But I think it's really important because talk about walking with people who walk a different road, talking about having relationship with others and talking about seeing all human beings as children of God. Thanks for going prickly on us, R.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Wasn't my intention. I love it. It's not anywhere in my pre-show notes.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

I'm I'm curious to hear your perspective of um of what it means to forgive. To find forgiveness for um for those that that hurt us or hurt those that we love. Um how long do we have?

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Well, you probably don't realize my dissertation was on the relationship between forgiveness and marital satisfaction. Wow. I I I I've done a lot of briefing. My dissertation for my my doctorate is it is titled The Relationship Between Forgiveness and Marital Satisfaction. Wow. Okay. So I've done a lot of studying on forgiveness. And I have the definition of forgiveness that I use in my dissertation, and then uh I've also done professional speaking and training on forgiveness. So with that as a precursor, the definition I used for forgiveness in my dissertation, see if I can get this right. Forgiveness, um the first few words is not coming to me, so I'll have to come back to that. But uh but the the the the definition I use now is giving up hope for a changed past. I love that because if you think about it, yeah, we don't forgive, it's like, well, why didn't you do this? Why didn't they do that? Why, why, why? And we get sucked into the the past. Yeah. But if we can just give up, we can't change the past, but we so desperately want to. And as soon as I give up hope that the past is going to be different, then we can move forward with with forgiveness, forgiveness.

unknown 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Just came to me. The definition I use in my dissertation: people, upon rationally determining that they have been unfairly treated, forgive when they willfully abandon resentment and related responses to which they have a right, and endeavor to respond to the wrongdoer based on the principle of beneficence, which will include uh may include brotherly love, to which the wrongdoer, by nature of their hurtful act or acts, has no right. That's a tongue twister.

SPEAKER_04 35:14

I know it really was. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, break that down for me, please. Maybe if I was reading it, I could break it down, but break it down for us.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

When we rationally determine that we have been unfairly treated, because that's where forgiveness begins. Hey, I I wasn't fit treated fairly. So once we rationally determine that, we consciously make a choice to respond to the person, um, basically with their humanness. As a child of God, their that brotherly love, that compassion, to which they don't have a right to. If I do if I wrong somebody, I don't have the right to expect that they will be loving and kind to me. But the moment they are loving and kind to me, I know that they've forgiven me.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

I tell clients all the time, and I do want to clarify this, um, and get your perspective on this as well. But this is what I tell clients, especially um people who are coming out of really toxic relationships where there is, you know, mental, verbal, even sometimes physical abuse, that to forgive doesn't mean that you have to go back into that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

You're right.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

It it doesn't mean that at all. You can forgive and not have any will ill wishes towards that person, but it doesn't mean you have to have a relationship with them.

SPEAKER_06 36:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:49

You know, forgiving just allows them to move forward and allows yourself that freedom to move forward, that freedom of all that rage and anger and hurt and all the trauma, the victimhood, all those things, and it allows it just to be released, to move forward. But forgiveness doesn't mean like, hey, I want to be your bestie.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Right. 100% agree. I think it allows both parties to just have the freedom to move on.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah, it it does because if I forgive, I'm no longer carrying that weight. Because think about it. Think about somebody in your life that you haven't forgiven yet. Do they know? Probably not. And if they didn't know, whether they know or not, do they care? Probably not. So who is who is suffering the most by not forgiving?

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Us. And so if I can forgive and move forward, then I'm better off.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Amen. Absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

Weights come off.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

But but doesn't mean I need to carry their them in my life with me.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

No, that is part of forgiveness. Because when you're holding on to that, you're still carrying them with you. You're still remembering everything, you're ruminating on it. You're like, oh, and they said and they did, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're stuck in that trauma. You're stuck in that still, even if you've moved out and you're living somewhere else, you haven't seen them for years, you're still in the the heart, hard part. And part of it is because you haven't forgiven.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

What's even more interesting about that is there's so many we we we think of forgiveness as a one-on-one, you know, personal.

SPEAKER_06 38:59

Yeah, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

The role of forgiveness in business is amazing. I did a TEDx talk up in Rexburgh, Idaho on forgiveness. That we, you know, I talked about business and the role it it plays. Because just thinking door-to-door sales. If I get door after door after door slammed in my face or no, no, no, I'm carrying each one of those no's to the next door, and I'm not gonna be as as productive. But if I can put each no, leave it at their property and move on to the next one fresh, I will I would have more sales.

SPEAKER_06 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

And I can say research has shown that. Uh, that forgiveness in business is huge.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

It's not going back and knocking on the door. I forgive you for slamming the door in my face.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Yeah. You don't have them in your life anymore, right? You don't need to worry about it.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Yeah. I like that actually. I like that tie-in. Because it's hard to explain, especially to my very devout Christian clients. That's the hardest one. So is it because they really struggle. They're like, I know I need to forgive. Should I stay in this relationship? Does that mean I have to stay? And I'm like, no, that doesn't mean you have to stay, especially again when it's really toxic and it's very unhealthy for them. It's like, no, that doesn't mean you have to stay at all. So you know, and they they feel like so guilty to leave. They feel so guilty to get out, you know, like they're literally like they're sinning, you know, to leave and to get out of such a harmful relationship that is destroying them, you know, and they feel like they're they're the bad one, you know, and that they're not forgiving by leaving. And it's like if I could just instill, I think maybe one of my number one things, if I could instill in clients, you can forgive and have healthy boundaries. That's absolutely good. We all should have the healthy boundaries, anyhow, with with all of our relationships. We, you know, and we decide how close we allow people to come in, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Well, and within Christian theology also, that's that's being godly is the ability to forgive and also hold really strong, strict boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, the i i if you look at the stories of Jesus, he beat the those that tried to trap him. He didn't follow up with them and say, let's have dinner, you know. He let them go on their way.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Yeah. Or he said nothing. You know, if you think about during the trial, you think about after the arrest.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

He didn't have to leave it.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Yeah, when we don't leave abusive relationships, we're not doing them or us uh any benefit.

SPEAKER_05 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Yeah. But realizing we can be brought back to that moment at any time. I had it in my TEDx talk, I talk about growing up I I was bullied a lot. And I thought I had forgiven them. The the people who did that. It was two boys, and their families were very close. They their siblings had married each other, and and so it was a tight-knit group. And over the years, and well, I went to one of their mothers passed away, and I found myself going to pay respect because I knew both families well. And I was standing there online, it's like I don't want to be here. All of a sudden, all that came flooding back, and I realized, huh. But by the time I processed it, I was standing in front of one of them. And this is where attitude and curiosity really came in for me, because he uh he said, Little Russ, I just can't call you doctor. And so my first reaction was, really, why not? You know, here we go again. But instead, Taking that because I already had a positive attitude that it was going to be a good day, I got curious and took a step back and said, Why not? And his response took me back because he said, because I've always known you as little Russ. Okay. I now understand where you're coming from, and I don't have to hold that grudge now.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

His sister walked up and he he said, you know, you remember little Russ? Oh yeah, you know. And and he looked at her, and this was a defining moment for me because he looked at her and said, We weren't very nice to him growing up. And for me, that took a big weight off my shoulders. He does understand. He does remember. His sister looked back at him and said, You weren't nice to anybody growing up. Which again took more weight off because I realized I'm not the only one.

SPEAKER_05 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

His sister walked off and he looked at me and said, I wish things would have been different.

SPEAKER_05 45:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Now he never said, I'm sorry. He never said anything, but that to me was his version of I recognize, I validate you, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 45:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

And just be able to go through that experience was like, wow.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

The fact that you stayed in line.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Because if you would have left, you know, you could have been validated and leaving, right? You could have been like, I'm not comfortable with here. I'm I'm just gonna go. You know, nobody would have noticed it wasn't a big scene, you're not offending anybody, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

You just go quietly, but the fact that you stayed and leaned into the discomfort, I think is so beautiful because you had this experience and you wouldn't have if you would have left.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah. And so often we learn the biggest lessons when we're uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Yeah, but we're also afraid of being uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

I hate being uncomfortable. But I truly hate it, truly hate it. But also I know looking at my life of 55 years, my greatest gifts, my greatest lessons, my greatest accomplishment, everything that is good about my life has come from going through some, I would not say uncomfortable, I would say really painful, really hard, really life-stretching experiences that I wouldn't take back, even though I hated them and complained the entire time going through them.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

I've thought of that many times. If I could go back and change anything in my life, would I?

SPEAKER_05 46:57

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Because if I changed one thing, so many other things would change.

SPEAKER_06 47:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

Are there things I wish I wouldn't have done or would have done? Yes. And I'm sorry for those situations, but they've also created who I am today.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yes.

unknown 47:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Yep. For sure. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

It's it's a part of this reality, it's a part of this life, it's a part of our growth, it's a part of our development, and it's a part of the good.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

It's it really is good. And and again, I get to remind myself of that. I was in this car accident just a few weeks ago, and I definitely sat in a recliner for, you know, a couple weeks, not being able to move a lot, and it hurt, and I was in pain. And I definitely went through gratitude and then feeling sorry for myself. Gratitude, feeling sorry for myself. That was my yo-yo for those two weeks, you know, gratitude that it wasn't worse. Gratitude for my amazing family and loving husband and the fact that I have a recliner to sit in, you know, like so much gratitude for friends who are reaching out, like so much gratitude. And then totally like, I hurt this sucks, self-pit, you know, just yo-yo'ed back and forth big time. I certainly didn't go like, yay, this is a learning opportunity. I didn't embrace it like that, but I was able to go to gratitude and I stayed in gratitude a lot during it, and and still in the process of physical therapy now and strengthening myself now. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

So the challenge for all of us is when that happened, how how long can you stay in that gratitude?

SPEAKER_05 48:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

Because growing up, you know, you you mentioned I run marathons and things. At 18, I had double knee surgery. Um, I've had so many issues with my knees, there were been times I couldn't walk. Wow. But I am so grateful every day I can walk. When was the last time you were grateful you could breathe? When it wasn't right after you had a head cold.

SPEAKER_05 49:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Remembering the situation and being grateful for the opportunity to be mobile.

unknown 49:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

When you have nothing wrong.

SPEAKER_04 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

Yeah. Which is a beautiful practice, you know.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

And the principle of forgiveness that you've gone through to forgive the other driver.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, that was easy. She came around and she felt so bad, and I'm sitting in the car, and I I'm really struggling to breathe, and she could tell I was in a lot of pain, and she's just like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And I I'm like, I'm not like I'm not a vengeful person, you're fine. I I just hurt, but go check on your kids because she had kids in her car. I that was an instant for me. I don't know why, it just that wasn't even a thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

I never felt and how often is it that we have a hard time forgiving situations, like insurance companies. And the the the fight that that goes through sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

There's no one identifiable, but it's just more of a situation.

SPEAKER_05 50:25

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

unknown 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

I I love that element of um what you said, kind of the challenge of how long can we stay within that gratitude when uh everything is going well. And we yeah, when things are going well. Um I think it's it's such a beautiful practice to um sit in in prayer or meditation or just in stillness uh or reflection and just simply allow allow ourselves to feel gratitude um for whatever it might be, you know, be it um the fact that we have clean water. When we have clean water, you know, most uh most of us with i in the west have have clean water. Um and if we you know have food in our bellies, you know, that's something that we take for granted. So many of us that many people don't have um having a safe home or uh again, all of these things that so many people don't have. And it's not even it's not even a um a matter of have or have nots. You don't need to think about um, you don't even have to be in a state of awareness of of all the have-nots to be grateful for what we have, but simply taking the time to recognize um all all of the beauty that surrounds us, all of the beauty that's within us, um, with our inherent uh nature as as children of God to be grateful. We we have everything, even in moments where it feels like we have nothing. Um just the fact that we're breathing, you know, we we have everything. Um one of my friends and co-workers, um, she was talking to me about when she faces an unhappy customer and you know, she's dealing with whatever it is that their issue is, and she's like, Alright, well, we can fix this, don't worry about it. And if they keep griping and and moaning and groaning, uh, she says she kind of laughs. She's like, I like to shut it down with, well, you know, we woke up today and we have clean water to drink, so and inevitably, you know, even if there's a bit of a huff after that from the customer, you know, they they kind of pause and they're like, you know what, you're right. Yeah, you're right. And you know, if uh if our biggest issue in this instance is having to go to a go to a store that you have an issue with and work with customer service to work it out, if that's your greatest issue that you have in a day, you know, that's a pretty dang good day. And instead of focusing on the frustration that we might feel, um, you know, zoom out a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 53:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

And uh and remember to practice that gratitude and to step into that. And um I also I love I love what you were talking about. Well, what all of us were discussing with the element of forgiveness and um how it releases the burden from off of us, from off of uh from off of us, from off of our chests, our shoulders. Um of my favorite songs is uh I forgive you I I I forget what it's called. I think it's I forgive you for me. I forgive you for me. Um to set me free. And uh it's it's so true. I I think of all of the people or instances that I still hold a grun uh a grudge against um even unknowingly or subconsciously, and um and how whenever those memories come up, they still bring pain and discomfort, and how much of a disservice it is to myself to have that. Um I'm I'm curious in our in our last few minutes, um I guess w how you approach letting go. Um, how how you approach the actual practicality of uh of uh that forgiveness and that element of releasing and letting go.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

I don't like the term let it go because it it it seems to be as if it never happened. I like the term more move for moving forward.

SPEAKER_06 55:28

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_03 55:30

Because I don't necessarily teach forgive and forget, because if you forget, you're gonna put yourself right back in that same negative situation.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

I I don't don't like that. Move forward with recognizing that what has happened is part of my past. One thing that we didn't talk about is forgiveness of self.

SPEAKER_04 56:01

Yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Yeah, but the principles are the same moving forward and understanding and recognizing it's in my past is the same with ourselves or with others. And the the a song I really like. I I speak in music a lot. I I kind of have a uh mental health playlist that I okay, you're dealing with that, go listen to this song. Um no wonder we get along. But Megan Woods is a Christian singer, and she sings a song called The Truth. And the chorus is the truth is I am my father's child. I make him proud and I make him spot smile. I was made in the image of a perfect king. He looks at me and wouldn't change a thing. The truth is I am truly loved by God who's good when I'm not good enough. I don't belong to the lies, I belong to you, and that's the truth. And just really recognizing that we are children of God. And if he can move forward, we can move forward in as we follow his example. Um because even those that that did what they they did to him still have that opportunity, they're still children of God. And so the person that that well, the the the two young men that bullied me, um and and one of the things they did, I was sitting on the stage, they lifted my feet and just pulled me off as I dropped right on the floor on my back. So that type of bullying, not just teasing, right? Physical stuff. Following the Christ's example, we can move forward. It's not always easy. And I find some a lot of times we don't want to move forward. I want to hang on to that pain and that hurt because it gives me purpose to hate you, right? But really it's just affecting you. And if they do care, well, we can both enter grace at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Well, thank you so much, Russ. I we really appreciate having you on on our little our little show here.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Well, thank you. It's it's been enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

I would love to hear just your closing remarks in uh in summary, how you believe that we can all be more unified on our walk through life together.

SPEAKER_03 59:21

I think we can be more unified in life as we take our walk in this journey together by being curious about each other's differences. Because if we were all the same, this would be a boring walk. But what makes it interesting and makes it enjoyable is the different experiences, the different uh uh understandings, the different viewpoints. And as we are curious and have an attitude of learning, we will be more inclusive and overall just be happier.

unknown 1:00:07

Yeah. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

Amen to that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:09

Amen. Preach.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

I I I feel like we could rename a walk with you to be curious. Yeah. That's what we keep coming back to.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

I love lean in. Lean in, be curious. Lean into the differences.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

Yeah, yeah, it's okay. And we don't have to agree on everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

We don't, that's one of the beautiful things, too. We don't have to be like, oh, now I'm totally changing to be you. It's just learning and being like, okay. Yeah. That explains why you see it the way you do. What's wrong with that? Like, why can't we do more of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

We can.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

We can do more of that. We can. We just need to put our minds to it and do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Right, right. Absolutely. Well, Russ, thank you again for joining us. And thank you to our listeners for joining us for another episode of I'll walk with you. Until next time, lean in, be curious. We love you. Have a wonderful day.