Mike Merchant

Hello listeners! Welcome back to I’ll Walk with You. This is Rhonda Monson and I have the privilege of introducing our guest for this episode, someone I have admired and looked up to my entire life, my oldest brother, Mike Merchant.

Mike has done and continues to do so many incredible things, he is the Senior Vice
President for The Arbinger Institute (Arbinger.com). The Board Chair for Anasazi
Foundation (Anasazi.org), a non-profit and nationally accredited behavioral health care provider for youth, young adults and their families.

Since 1993, Mike has consulted and facilitated internationally with senior leaders of corporations, nonprofits, and government agencies on the topics of leadership
development and influence, change management, conflict resolution, and improving personal and organization performance. He has chaired numerous councils and committees on best practices for the treatment of adolescents in the care of behavioral healthcare providers. Mike is an expert in strategic communications, and in 2004 developed the communication component at the heart of the Emmy-nominated “Take Time to Talk” substance abuse awareness and prevention campaign currently used by the Partnership for Drug Free America. He is the founder of the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council, the past president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (natsap.org), and recipient of the 2017 NATSAP Leadership Award. Mike coaches NGO leaders worldwide on measuring, improving, and reporting social impact and facilitated the Forever Young Foundation Nonprofit Institute (foreveryoung.org). 

He is also a former bishop for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Mike is a graduate of Brigham Young University’s Marriott School of Management where he was named the 2016 Outstanding Professional. He and his wife Gaylene are the
proud parents of seven red headed amazingly talented children and 16 beautiful
grandchildren. As I said before I have admired Mike all my life. He is 8 years older than me and moved out to go to school and serve a mission for our church when I was just 8 years old. I have always wished that we were closer as he is so busy doing all he can to make a difference in this world. 

I greatly enjoyed having this conversation with him.

My greatest take away from this conversation was the question, “What would love have me do?” A great question to ask ourselves when faced with possibly difficult situations.

Thank you for listening to this episode of I’ll Walk with You with our guest, my big
brother, Mike Merchant.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello, listeners. Welcome back to I'll Walk With You. This is Rhonda Monson, and I have the privilege of introducing our guest for this episode. Someone I have admired and looked up to my entire life. My oldest brother, Mike Merchant. Mike has done and continues to do so many incredible things. He is the senior vice president for the Arvinger Institute, the board chair for Anasazi Foundation, a nonprofit and nationally accredited behavioral health care provider for youth, young adults, and their families. Since 1993, Mike has consulted and facilitated internationally with senior leaders of corporations, nonprofits, and government agencies on the topics of leadership development and influence, change management, conflict resolution, and improving personal and organization performances. He has chaired numerous councils and committees on best practices for the treatment of adolescents in the care of behavioral health providers. Mike is an expert in strategic communications and in 2004 developed the communication component at the heart of the Emmy nominated Take Time to Talk Substance Abuse Awareness and Prevention campaign currently used by the Partnership for Drug-Free America. He is the founder of the Outdoor Behavioral Health Council, the past president of the National Associating of Therapeutic Schools and Programs, and recipient of the 2017 NATSAP Leadership Award. Mike coaches NGO leaders worldwide on measuring, improving, and reporting social impact and facilitating the Forever Young Foundation Nonprofit Institute. He is also a former bishop for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mike is a graduate of Brigham Young University's Marriott School of Management, where he was named the 2016 Outstanding Professional. Most of all, Mike and his wife, Gayleen, are the proud parents of seven red-headed, amazingly talented children and 16 beautiful grandchildren. As I said before, I have admired Mike all of my life. He is eight years older than I am and moved out to go to school and serve a mission for our church when I was just eight years old. I've always wished that we were closer as he is so busy doing all that he can to make a difference in this world. I greatly enjoyed having this conversation with him. My greatest takeaway from this conversation was the question: what would love have me do? A great question to ask ourselves when faced with possibly difficult situations. Thank you for listening to this episode of I'll Walk With You with our guest, my big brother, Mike Merchant.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Hello, and welcome back to I'll Walk With You, the podcast where we have conversations about how we can all be more unified on our walk through life together. My name is Dakota Moses.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I'm Rhonda Monson, and this is my eldest brother, Mike Merchant, and we're super excited to have you, Mike. Um, Mike does great work and he has helped a lot of people. Um, since I was a little girl, I have always admired Mike, and I'll get really emotional. Um, he does good things and he's always had a very kind heart, and I'm truly very honored to have you as a guest, Mike. So you can tell our listeners um what you do for a living and the amazing things you've done as an adult and your life.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Well, thank you, and I'm honored to be here with you and to be with the two of you. What a what a great opportunity. And I love the name of the podcast, and so and I'll talk more about that as we have time together today, but just this idea of walking together, right? So now a little background. Um, I I probably the most important thing is I have a large family. Um, I have seven red-headed children. I had red hair until I gave it to them, and that's where it went. That that that consumes most of our life. We have um 16 grandchildren and and uh and a wonderful wife that I'm on this journey with as well. So so that's that's that's probably the most important, biggest part of my life. Um, but uh I had had the opportunity um over you know many years to be a part of an organization called Anasazi Foundation and uh based in Mesa, Arizona, we work with young people 12 to 25 years old with substance abuse and emotional and behavioral concerns. And we take in people out in the outdoors and with some wonderful people who can help them sort through some of the challenges of their lives and heal and strengthen their relationships with their families. And so I've been part of that organization since 1990. I um was their executive director for 27 years, and I currently serve on their board. And the person that got me involved in that is a gentleman by name is Dr. C. Terry Warner, a professor of philosophy, um, who uh who had fallen in love with this Anasazi Foundation and the work that they were doing, felt like it was his life's work in action, and asked them what he could do to help them. And they said, find somebody to run the business side of the organization. So that's how I got involved in 1990. And and Terry Warner's work has really informed in many ways the work that we do with Anasazi. Um, and and he formed an organization called the Arbinger Institute. And so much our Anasazi uses much of that content and ideas and thinking from the the uh Arbinger Institute to train our staff and to train our parents. And so it's really an integral part of the work that we do there. And now I currently serve as a senior vice president of the Arbinger Institute and oversee all of our facilitators and coaches and the delivery of our work um throughout the world to organizations and individuals who um want to turn their lives more outward. So I hope that's helpful. I don't know if you have any more questions, but that gives you a little idea.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah. Um I am very familiar with the Anasazi program. We had our own daughter go on the um trail, and I've seen people's lives change from that experience. And I do feel like the Anasazi model is perfect with what we're trying to share here on this podcast because it is about walking with it, it it's not, it's you hear wilderness program, and people have lots of ideas of what that is, you know, and and often they think military and militant and you know, and um like a punishment. And anasazi is so far from a punishment. So I I would love for you to talk more about that.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Yeah, from the very beginning, the two gentlemen who found founded Anasazi was a gentleman by the name of Larry Dean Olson, who was an outdoor survival expert. He'd written uh a book that a bestseller that had been used in the military with scouting and and all over the world and how to survive in the wilderness. And he had become fascinated with um native cultures and traditions and technologies. And then Ezekiel C. Sanchez, who is a Totonac Indian from northern Mexico, who came across Rio Grande when he was uh just just a young boy and worked in the migrant fields and eventually um began to develop some of his art talents and skills and ended up at the university with with Larry Olsen. And Larry saw his talent and invited him to join him. And the two of them learned some really core simple ideas that I think were foundational to the to the start of Arbinger, I mean, excuse me, of Anasazi. Um, one of those was they began to take young people out on the outdoors to have these experiences to learn survival skills. But when people came home from those experiences, they didn't talk about the survival skills they learned. They talked about, you know, overcoming what they had thought were insurmountable, you know, challenges. They talked about the relationships they built, they talked about finding God in their life again. They they talked about getting clarity about, you know, about what they wanted to do in their life and where they wanted to go. And and so that's what they talked about coming back from those experiences. And so they began to develop this further. And uh, and over many years of taking students and young people and adjudicated youth out on these outdoor um adventures, um, they made a couple of real simple basic discoveries. One was that young people actually responded best to somebody who was on the journey with them, not somebody who was trying to fix them or change them in some way, but just somebody who is learning right alongside with them, which is a really interesting um idea. And if we think about our own experience in life, we learn best from people who are still learning. We just do. Um, we we want to be with them, we want to learn with them. And uh so they discovered that, right? They discovered that. And so when young people came to the programs, they didn't tell the staff all the gory details about their past or their history or why they came or any of that. It was just like we're on this journey together. We're learning together, we're having awakenings together, we're discovering things together. And so that was one. Second one was they actually young people responded best to somebody who actually saw something in them that they didn't see in themselves. They saw their greatness, they saw um, you know, they observed greatness in them. And uh, and so that became a focus of the work was really to look for the greatness in these young people. So we might call it a positive psychology model where we're not, you know, diving into all their weaknesses right, but really looking for the greatness and trying to nurture that greatness. But little did they know in inviting the staff and those who worked with these young people, the therapists, and all of them, that the focus and looking for their greatness and actually developing that greatness invited them to come to that relationship in a different way because they weren't thinking about themselves. You know, like a young person could come and participate in a program and get upset and you know, yell at staff, but staff are like, oh my gosh, I love your voice. You say, right? You should be a radio, you know, or whatever it is. They're looking for their greatness, you know. You can go pound on a tree if you're frustrated, but the tree's not gonna pound back. You can go, you know, put your fist to the sky, but the sun's still gonna come up the next morning. And uh, and so young people were left with nowhere to go. They didn't have anyone to blame, they could become responsible for their life. And the only way people become responsible for their life is in the face of love, face of somebody who sees them as a person. And uh, and that's no one can change or grow or get better until they become responsible for their life. And so they had made, you know, actually created an environment where young people could see their lives truthfully and uh and understand this is my walking, this is my journey, and uh, and and that's what Terry Warner, when he was first introduced to Anasazi in 1989, and he was just fascinated by that. What's possible in an environment free from justification, free from excuse, um, just in the face of love? What's possible? And uh so that's why he got involved. And then obviously Terry's work, Arbinger's work, gave Anasazi a way to get really intentional about you know developing that and train our staff and others in ways that that further created that type of environment. Um, and so anyway, that's kind of a long story to it, but that's that's how, and and and when I got involved in that, it was mostly on the business side, but then I also became very fascinated with why it was so impactful, um, why it actually helped young people so much. And and that I was part of the implementation of Arbinger's training, we started training our parents and families because we realized that young people would come to Anasasi have this amazing experience. But if they went home and they were still seen the same, um, they would quickly go back. And so to be able to help families make changes at home that would um enable that child to come back into the home and have a new beginning and be seen as a person, not a problem. Um that was that was way more likely that that that child was going to grow and and prosper and uh and and thrive in that type of environment.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yes. I think that it's so it's so important to have the tools to know how to um how to integrate those powerful experiences that we have in life into our everyday life, you know, going back to school, going back to work, going back to family dynamics and conflicts within relationships. Um I think that I won't I I don't want to say that it's easy, but uh I'll say I'll use that word. It's easy to have a powerful spiritual experience when there's nothing around you but nature.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

But it's a lot more difficult to integrate that into your life and really live that way. Um it's it's powerful, it's powerful work and it's um it's difficult work at times. Um you've mentioned that the training models that you use with Arbinger is kind of how uh you you train families uh with Anasazi. I would love to hear more about what Arbinger is. Um, you know, on the front page of the website it says um it talks about mindset and uh and focusing on that. But I would love to hear what your experience with Arbinger has been and in your words, what Arbinger is all about as well.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Yeah, so so mindset is language that we've used more recently. Um, but in our definition of mindset is it's how we see, it's how we see others, it's how we see challenges, it's how we see opportunities, it's how we see ourselves. And mindset drives our behavior that drives our results. And too often when we want to make a change in our life or we want to reach a new level of performance in some way, we focus just on changing our behavior without attending the mindset. And so we just kind of go back to the old result. So, how can we improve our mindset? So the the work of Arbinger is at the level of mindset at Anastasi, we call that change of heart. And so, in in other words, we would always talk about anasasi. It's it's not a behavior modification program. We're not simply focused on trying to change somebody's behavior. We know that as someone's heart, in other words, how they see changes, behaviors change. And so it would something much deeper. And uh, so our focus is on how do we help people um take others into account? How do we take how we how do we invite them to see others more truthfully and consider that you know their life is impacting others, that we really never live life separate from others. We try to, we try and exclude ourselves from others, but look, no, we're we're on this journey with others. We can be with them in a separate kind of a way, or we can be with them in a together kind of a way. And so at Arbinger, we talk about these two mindsets. Um, one mindset that we call an inward mindset, where I'm just focused on my results, what I want to accomplish, what I want to achieve, you know, and others are people to me. They're just there to help me with what I need, or they're in the way of what I need, or they don't matter to what I need. And but they're not people to me, they're just objects. And another mindset is an outward mindset where people actually count and matter. They've got challenges and needs of their own, they've got a job to do of their own, they have obligations, aspirations, and so do I. Um, and so it's not that I I don't have them as well, but so do others, and I'm taking that into account. I'm living and working in a way that that that's in consideration and in the way in which I live and work. I think it was attributed to Plato's also been attributed to Robin Williams, which is everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. So be kind. It's the most common human condition is that we all, every one of us is going in or out of a crisis. Every one of us is fighting a battle. I mean, somebody's got a mother-in-law moving in, somebody's got a 16-year-old they're worried about, somebody's got a health issue, a marriage challenge, financial challenge. We all have them. And so when I'm outward, I I realize that. And and I and I want to the thing I want to do is I want to work in a way or live in a way that's can that's taken that into account, that considers that. Um, Terry Warner years ago made this statement, and he said, he said, you know, there really are no silos, whether it's in any of our relationships. He says, we're always either helping or hindering each other. And sometimes the way in which we hinder each other is we don't help when we can. And so we we are not separate from others, and we try to be, right, like we said. So at Ansazi, we use this language of of um we, you know, the walking of we means that we're walking with others versus the walking of me. So so we use really simple language uh in nature. Um, and some of the core ideas at Arbinger is that we all have a sense about how we ought to be towards others. Because I'm human, I have a sense that others are human as well. I have a sense of how we'd want to be treated if I was in their circumstances, I have a sense of how I ought to be towards them. We might call that our heart, we might call it our conscience, we might call it whatever we might call it. Um, I know my own faith, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter-day Saints, we call it light of Christ, but we all have that sensibility about us. And uh, and uh in and so if we honor that sense, we s we stay outward, right? We're taking others into account, or we can betray that sense. And when we betray that sense, we create a new need in our life. We now have to justify why it is I'm not treating somebody else as someone who counts and matters like I matter. And uh in fact, what is an inward mindset? Well, it's an active resistance to the equal personhood of another. In other words, you are a person, Dakota. The only way I can see you any other way than a person is I have to justify that. I have to make that okay in my brain. And and so um that takes energy, takes effort, takes I read books in a way to justify it. I it it I put on darkened glasses and I now see the world in a self-fulfilling, justifying way. I consume everything in the world in a way that justifies my resistance of you. That's the only way I can see you is less or more than me, because you are you're a person just like me. And uh, and so now um I think in Asazi, we like to use a language of walking forward, walking backwards. That's why I love the name of the podcast. So every person who stands before me gives me that opportunity to to make a choice. I can choose to walk forward toward them, maybe not physically, but in my heart toward them and embrace their humanity, whoever they are, their own perspectives, ideas, their own challenges, needs, right? I can walk toward them, walk forward, or I can walk backwards, walk away from them. And walk forward, I have a heart of peace. Walk backwards, I have a heart of war. Not that I'm warring with them, but because I'm now warring with myself, because I have to now justify why it is I can't be with them or treat them as a person who counts like I count. And so um, so that's the idea on of Anasasi with teaching young people how do I walk forward? How do I walk toward my people, toward my family, toward my siblings, you know, towards those who have who have made my life easier, toward those who have made sometimes made my life harder. And uh, how do I walk toward them versus walk away, walk backwards?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

I think that's just beautiful. And I've had the opportunity to attend um Arbinger seminars a few different times throughout my life. Um, and I think it's absolutely helped me in the work that I do with my clients through counseling. And it is amazing to me how many people haven't felt seen in their lives. I uh I am taken back, you know, because Mike and I grew up in the same home. We knew we were loved, we knew we were wanted. You know, it wasn't the perfect home, but it sure was a good home. It sure was a good home. And I look at some of my clients who come in and they don't, they don't have that, you know, where they know that they were wanted and loved. And it is amazing as I point out their goodness, you know, and I point out their strengths. And they're just like, what? Nobody's ever said this to me, you know, and how we need that. We we all need that. I'm so thankful that I received that as a kiddo and had that foundation. And I'm, you know, we we need that as a society, as a culture. Um, others need that. And when someone comes across as super prickly, a lot of the times they don't feel that. They don't feel like they've been seen, they don't feel like they're wanted. And so they're prickly. And those, those are the really hard ones, you know, but they're also usually the ones who really need that, who really need someone to say, hey, I see this goodness in you. You know, especially as as you get to know them and you really genuinely do see the good things in them.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Yeah, there's it's walking toward them that that allows you to do that, right? It's really get curious about them, about their experience in life, their challenges, their needs, that chases away that heart of ore and replaces it with heart of peace, right? It's it's the truth about others, the very thing we're cut off from when our mind, when our mind sets inward, that that uh it it and it's you. It's it's your needs, your challenges, what you're trying to accomplish, that actually replaces the resentment, the entitlement, the frustration, um, see myself as above or beneath them, it replaces it with care and compassion and empathy. And uh, and what I've learned is the truth about others and care and compassion are one thing. So if I feel anything but care and compassion towards you, pretty good chance where am I? Right? Well, I'm inward and I'm only, you know, see myself as above or beneath you. And if I feel anything but care and compassion towards you, pretty good chance I don't know who you really are. Right? Just my self-fulfilling distorted view of you that I have, or my biased view of you that I have, right? That I I don't know who you really are. But the moment I get curious to discover who you are, how you think, what your aspirations are, what your challenges are, it's that that chases away um the inward mindset and and opens up a world of possibilities, things we could do, things we should do, right? And uh and and so it's it's walking forward, right? Walking towards others. One of my colleagues says leaning in, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

And uh, and so when someone comes in, they're a little prickly and they're a little challenging, lean in, learn more about them. You say, tell me more about that. There's a great um article that I've always loved. It's called Tell Me More, The Art of Listening by Brenda Ewand. And she makes this claim that you can transform people by just listening to them a little bit longer. But listening in the way that you're talking about, Rhonda, which is I'm really curious about you. I just want to know about you and who you are, and and you know, and I see your greatness and I want to learn more about that. Um, she says, People when they come to us aren't often honest or straightforward. They're trying to get something, and and uh not always, but a lot of times. And she says, we just want to jump in, fix it, you know. And she says, no, no, no. Oh, she says, just listen longer. And she plants this question in your brain that says, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that, just to get curious about others and who they are and what they're experiencing, even how they're experiencing you, the more I can learn about how people experience me as this bold white guy, old guy, you know, that's trying to the more I I my world opens up to possibilities and things I hadn't considered, hadn't thought about before, the more I'm on that learning journey with them.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

I love that. It's one of my favorite things with clients is say more about that because I really do want to know. And it really is a part of their story, it's a part of who they are, and it helps me understand them so much more and understand why they're in in that space where they're seeking counseling. People don't usually seek counseling when life is great, they seek counseling because life is hurting in some way, and so and sometimes I seek it, like you said a minute ago, to be seen.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Yes, to be because in their world and their environment, they don't feel that. In fact, I think that's one of the data points for me when my mindset is inward is somebody's walking away from me with furrowed brows or darkened countenances or you know, turned away in some way or resisting me in some way. In that moment, pretty good chance they don't feel seen, heard, or valued. They just feel as if they're just a vehicle, an obstacle in my way, or irrelevant to what I'm trying to do. And and that data point tells me I gotta get more curious. Hey, wait a minute, tell me more about that, all right?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, yeah. I I have kind of a multi-point question. Um, you've held a lot of leadership positions and roles uh and and titles within your life. Um you've been, you are a father, you're a grandfather, you have been a bishop, you have uh your titles and positions within your career. Um so I'm curious to know how this work and this um this way of thinking, this way of seeing the world, this way of seeing others has influenced your positions uh as a leader. But I'm also very curious, this is kind of that second point, um, to hear of times when maybe times of uncomfortable growth, times of your own resistance to um well, to in embodying what it is that you what it is that you teach, you know, times when um you faced maybe some um maybe some uh self-reflective feedback that uh you you realize, oh, like I'm I'm not doing as well as as maybe I uh as maybe I could. And times when but some sometimes um sometimes I think you know we when we are in positions of leadership um or even even before or after, we um we kind of have this a bit of a persona, you know, of this is what I believe and this is what I'm trying to embody and this is what I'm trying to teach. Uh however, I'm not there right now. Um and I'm really curious to hear kind of both of those, both of those perspectives.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Well, so kind of the first part of the question, um, I certainly think this work from early on um invited me to consider others, right? And understand that I can't lead without other people's perspective and that the way in which I lead impacts people. And so, so whenever I'm taking action or making a decision, who will be affected by this, right? I gotta take that into account. That drives, you know, how I communicate, that drives who I should include in this decision, that drives so just a simple idea like that, that that this decision impacts other people and how might it impact other people? And okay, well, let's jump on a phone call or let's have a meeting or let's so maybe to go slow to go fast. In other words, taking the opportunity to include others um is is I think probably a a skill that I've developed more and more over time as a result of this, that I I don't try and make decisions in a vacuum anymore because I know they impact other people. I I guess would be a big the other thing is to to realize that everyone is on their own journey, their own path. Um, and certainly in in you know my personal faith, I believe that everyone um has their own journey, their own unique journey here upon this earth, and that God's plan, plan of happiness, is actually uniquely and and and perfectly designed um for each one of us to to return and live with him again. That's what he wants. And so so to understand that people are on their own journey. And I may just be one person along that journey, but they're on their own journey. And uh, and their journey is also of discovery, discovering when they're only thinking about themselves and when they need to include others. And so I feel as a leader, I have an obligation to help develop people where I touch on that journey, where I might be on that journey with them. And develop doesn't mean fix them or change them, but provide them with opportunities for growth, opportunities to to be part of the organization or to make decisions or to you know to develop their skill sets um and uh and and help them see. I think one misconception about this idea of you know walking forward or outward mindset is that it just means we're behaviorally soft and uh and being inward is behaviorally hard. And uh, and actually, um, you know, how many uh when you think about it? We've all had people who've said hard things to us and we knew they really cared about us, right? And yet we've all had people say soft, sweet things to us, and we know they're up to something.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

So you know, and so what people are responding to is how they're being seen, you know, more than the words we say, more than whether we're hard or soft. So hard or soft is a distinction of behavior, not a distinction of mindset. If I really care about you, Dakota, and you're on my team, and I see you not making the contribution you could make, like you're capable of doing more, or I see you making contribution that's actually negatively impacting others. Um, I'm not gonna sit on that because I care about you. I care about you and your development because I have a responsibility towards that and the organization, and have been entrusted with resources and for one purpose, and that's get results. And and and so I'm gonna sit with you and say, Dakota, look, your behavior right now is actually not helping us get the result we need to here. And then I listen, listen, and what what can we do to help improve and grow? And and that made me a challenging and difficult conversation. So I think the other thing I've learned is not to sit on it, not to wait. Not I think early on in my career, I was so worried about how I was being seen. I wanted to be seen as this nice and likable and competent leader. And so I wouldn't make those tough decisions, I wouldn't have those tough conversations, I wouldn't, you know, and and uh and and now I think I realize like if I really care about people, I want to have those conversations, I want to provide feedback. I want, and I've also realized with this young up-and-coming workforce that they've grown up with instant feedback, you know, they've grown up thumbs up and likes and instant feedback. And, you know, here I am been the workforce for a long time, and I'm like, why do you need so much feedback? Go to your job, you know, and so I gotta realize that's how their brains are wired, right? That's that's just how it works to take in account how they're experiencing me as a leader and uh and how can I actually help them be successful and uh and and and really you know accomplish what they like to. And and uh and so uh I don't know if you remember Zappos, the the shoe company. Um, I was invited to go see Zappos call center in Las Vegas once, and they kept saying it's Arminger, it's outward, you gotta go see it. And when I went there, it was this really unnerving work environment. It was all open bullpen work environment with you know, they gutted out this old city hall and danglies off the ceiling, uh, you know, over everybody's cubicle and salad bar on one side and a cereal bar on the other side, and live music out in the courtyard. I mean, it was but but people loved it, they loved it. But they only had a couple of doors, uh a couple of rooms that had doors, the restrooms, and then and I think the attorneys. But they had this one room that had a door on it, but it was called the royalty room. And I loved that room. And you can look it up, but in the royalty room, they have a throne on one side of the room. I mean, it's a real throne sitting there in the room. The other side of the room had tables and a couple folding tables and some chairs, and and they would bring their employees in and put them on the throne. And they want to know, look, look, what are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to achieve? Oh, you want to get into retail. Let's see if we can find a way to help that be successful. So people mattered to them. And uh, so I think I don't know, that's a lot, but just that simple idea. I think that's what I've wow, these principles have have, you know, influenced how I how I lead. Um the second part of your question is what are the things that I bumped up against? I think um two things. Too often I still think uh too much of myself. I mean, there's just too often. And uh I don't think I stay there quite as long. I think I catch myself, but I spend way too much time thinking about me. And uh and in Arbinger's language, I have a need to be seen as inward style. So when my mindset's inward, that's the style I pick up at work. At home, it's better than I need to be seen as better than, but at work it's need to be seen as. And and so um, and how I know I have that style is things happen that uh that that threaten that in some way. I mean, I had a coach at Urbinger for a year, her name was Nancy Smith, and she would jump on a call with me and navigate through my life and find a box and inward mindset. And she would ask this question, and at first I hated this question, but after a while I began to love this question. She'd say, Mike, what image about you is now being shattered or threatened? I'm like, ask that question of me again. Are you? But the more she asked it, the more I learned to love that question. Little things like, you know, I I'd grown up in a home that was loved. I was very much loved, as Rhonda said, we all were, but we're we're always broke, we always had financial challenges. And and so I remember telling myself, going to college, that I wasn't gonna be like them. I was never having problems with money like they had. And I was never, and uh, and I uptyped that as an image about myself. So when I got married and we started having problems with money, well, not gonna be my fault, right? So there's an eruption for me that it wouldn't be, but that wasn't about that was about me, right? And uh, and as a young leader, you know, I wanted, you know, for example, when Terry Warner recruited me, I wanted him to see that I could do this and I wanted that I could do it right. And so I was needy for feedback. And I I was careful to make sure and navigate information that went back to him just in the best light of me. And and uh, and then when something went wrong, I mean there would be an eruption for me, right? And it was never my fault because I have this image I had to protect. This can make me look bad in some way. So, in other words, I started to find that so much of this was about me. And uh, and so so the biggest challenges I've had typically is when that's been shattered, but also those are the greatest opportunities to learn. So I might see the world in a particular way, which might not be accurate. Now, these inward styles, we there's another way in which we pick them up, and that's from the significant influences in our lives when we're young, where we begin to see ourselves as as above, beneath other people. They don't count like we count their we're we're above or beneath them. So we we begin to assign meaning to other people, um, to their uh, you know, who they are, what this, you know, what this lifestyle is, or what what this you know CEO is or what this color is, you know, we assign a meaning to that. And uh and most of those have been shattered for me. They're not what I thought, they're not anything what I thought. And the only way, the way out of all of that is the same. That's to get curious about others. Yeah, the same. The solution is still the same, right? Because where am I when I'm worried about my image and it's now getting shattered? Well, I'm thinking about me, and others are not in the equation. I'm not I'm not taking them into account. I'm not I'm blind to who they really are and uh on their journey. So so I think um maybe the most challenging ones I've created for myself, if that makes sense. Yeah, right. Something's not gone my way, or or someone's questioned my motives, or someone's spent too much here, or someone's and uh, and and then I've tried to solve that, fix that from that inward style, and it's it's created problems. And I've I've hurt people and I've hurt myself doing that, and uh, and I don't want to do that, but and I still do it, that's the challenge. But I I think and I hope I'm I'm I don't stay there very long, right? I catch myself. I'm like, I know the nerve in my brain and I know where it's gonna go, and I'm like, oh no, I don't I gotta stop for a moment and get curious about other people. So I don't know if that helps, but I've had you know lots and lots of challenging situations, lots and ups and downs, and and uh with with with having no money, having more money, having, you know, when it comes to personal life and business, my my business life is actually mirrored that same thing, you know, with our organizations we work through. And so but there's I think I did I have developed some resilience to that because I know I can get through it, I can work through it. But but I do um I find that I'm the happiest and finding the most fulfillment when um when I'm with others in a together kind of way, when I'm focused and I'm more collaborative, more innovative, more creative, more efficient when I'm in service to others. Um not just me. When I'm just thinking about me, that's when I'm the slowest, bogged down, putting energy into it, and uh and I squander resources and time, right? Yeah, which isn't resource.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

So right. Um I'm kind of shifting gears a little bit. You you used to um tell a story when we had our foster son go on the trail, and then when uh my daughter went on the trail, you shared a story about um one of the um young adults who walk with these kiddos, and it was about shoes. Do you know what story I'm talking about? Yeah, I love this story, and if you're willing to share this story, I think it's so applicable to um the things that we're discussing and um this podcast. And yeah, I I I love the story about the shoes.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

It's actually found in the Anatomy of Peace, which is one of Arbinger's publications. You can read it. I'll I'll probably butcher it, sharing it because I haven't shared it for a while. But uh, but we had a young lady who came to Anasasi. Um, we we we do our best to make sure young people know where they're coming, when they're coming. We don't like the idea of deception or any of that around it. And so, but somehow this mom and dad didn't quite tell her all the gory details of going to the Anasasi and that she was going to be there as long as she was gonna be there. So when they they got to the office and they had drove their van up to the office, they uh um they told her in the car, and she was not excited, she was not about to get out of the car. And and so we don't physically restrain them or try and move them or anything else. So mom and dad came in and we we talked to mom and dad and spent some time with her. And eventually, you know, she gets out of the car, and uh, and our staff were outside kind of waiting, and our staff are busy and they're visiting, and and uh, and she takes off, just takes off on a dead run and uh jumps over a center block fence and she's barefoot and she jumps onto the sidewalk and just barrels down the street, and uh, and then um you know our staff immediately, you know, follow after her. And they um two of our young staff who you know their their job is just to walk with them, right? We we walk with them. Again, we don't restrain any of that, we just walk with them. And after they'd walked several blocks in this in this horrible heat, and and then the the sidewalk is you know 120 degrees, and and uh she ends up walking across um uh you know some some rocks and uh and and one of our staff noticed that her feet are just you know they're red and they're they're they're look like they're about to bleed. And and so he says, Look, hey, um you know, take take my shoes, you know, take my shoes, and uh, and you can use my shoes and let me walk for a little bit barefoot, and you can you know, take my shoes, and she she refused, and but she was kind of stunned by that whole idea, take my shoes, right? And then he went a little bit further, and the other trail walkers said, No, no, take my shoes, take my shoes. You you can wear my shoes, let me go barefoot for a while, and uh, she refused. So both of our trail walkers took off their shoes to walk with her, to walk with her, and in on the heat on the sidewalk, to be on that journey with her. And uh, and she just thought that was absurd. Like, how would why would you do that? Why would you do that? And they get over to a shopping area and uh And they're and they kind of get to an it's a black pavement and it's just as hot as it can be. And so one of the trailwalkers says, Well, maybe if we walk on the, you know, on the white lines, you know, over that that it'll be a little cold. So that are they're walking on the white lines, the parking lot lines, all the way over to the the the sidewalk. And uh and they they get I mean to the sidewalk by the store where it's a little shaded, and they sit down and and uh she just says, Um, I just need a few minutes. Is that okay? And uh they said, okay. So they scooted down the sidewalk a little while. And uh, you know, within you know, maybe 10-15 minutes, she says, I'm ready to go. And they, you know, had somebody come pick them up, and she went to the trail and had a wonderful experience and while she was out there. But but the idea of somebody just being willing to be on that journey with her, you know, knowing that was hard, knowing that was challenging. We live our lives so differently from those people sometimes who are experiencing really challenging um circumstances. And so, can we actually take a moment and and at least, you know, we always talk about you know, put ourselves in someone else's shoes, but remember, we're putting ourselves in someone else's shoes. So we're still putting our own perspective, everything else inside their shoes, and we got to be aware of that, right? Um, I'm always gonna bring my biases to your experience where things are at. I just have to be aware of that.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

So I want to put myself in your shoes, but I want to do it in a way that really is curious about what's this like for you? What's that experience like for you? So that I do my best to rid myself of my own bias around what that experience might be like for you. We're so often delivering things and pushing things out that we think are helpful to other people, but but we don't really know until we we try and learn about them and who they are.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Absolutely. Um, of course, within within the merchant family, uh and um there's just a lot of big personalities. A lot of big personalities in our family. No, um a lot of very bold and strong opinions and very strong individuals, and um your your children are no exception to that. Um I'm very curious to to hear how this work has influenced your your life at home, um, how that how this work has influenced times when um when you and one of your children or multiple of your children are going in you know all seven different directions and all have very differing opinions and needs. Uh and then of course with your your wife Galen, maybe all of you are going in you know nine different directions and how you have how you've managed that and um and again just how this work and and life approach has influenced that.

SPEAKER_04 47:13

Well, going back to what I said about work life, I don't always do it very well, and uh so uh but again, I I hope I kind of catch myself when I'm not doing it well. But the um I I think going back to what we talked about earlier, understanding that everyone is having their own walking. Everyone, and it's a walking that was perfectly designed for them. And I'm I'm certainly part of that walking, um, and have been somehow placed on this journey with them for whatever time I get a chance to walk with them. Um, and I can either be with them in a together kind of way or a separate kind of a way. And uh, and I want to be with them in a in a walk-in of we, in a together kind of way versus a separate kind of a way, and uh, and so so some might have a really strong opinion that maybe opposes my opinion. And I know I get accused in my family sometimes of not having strong enough opinions, you know, and and uh, you know, and why don't I step up and speak, you know, but but I um and maybe some of it comes from working on Sazi and working at Arbinger where I've needed to be more apolitical, I don't know, but um, but I certainly have my own ideas and my my own views and and uh and and and but I want to be I want to be considered of theirs. I want to try and understand theirs. Um I want to create space where we we learn from each other um because I know that we're all on this journey. At some point we have to formulate our own. It can't just be mom and dad's opinion and and or or or testimony or or view of the world or right, they need to formulate their own and they need to have the autonomy to do so. And and it's structured autonomy. In other words, I think what it means to be a good parent is we we certainly there's structure. There's we create opportunities to teach and to listen and learn and grow when things are going well. That way what we when if we have the right kind of relationships and we've been teaching when things are going well, then we've earned the right when things don't go so well to step in if we need to, right? And have a difficult conversation if we need to. Um, and uh, and in in that Anatomy of Peace book that I share with there's there's what's called the influence pyramid in there. And uh and influence pyramid is set up in a hierarchy where it just says, look, um, it starts at the bottom, which mindset is foundational, how we see and regard our children, and so do I see them as on their own journey, right? As as children of God, with a loving God who loves them, cares about them deeply, with a savior who's actually, you know, who's actually made it possible for them to have new beginnings. And uh, and so can I offer those new beginnings to them? Um, and can they count a matter like I matter on this journey? And then to build relationships. And building relationships is not so much about volumes of time as it is frequency of connection. So it's just connect, to be there, to make sure they know they have someone they can go to, they can talk to and things. Gaylene does that better than anyone I know. Our kids, they talk to her every day, every day. They feel totally safe with her, they feel completely open with her. They'll share with her the pains, the heartaches, the challenges, the needs. She's created this beautiful, safe place for all of our children, no matter what their political view is, no matter what they're thinking to, you know, to do. And I really appreciate that about her. And then next is listen and learn, just listening, really listening and to try to understand that. And then I the the smallest part of the pyramid is teach, communicate, and correct, which that is our responsibility, is we got to teach, communicate, and correct. But if if we're spending all of our time doing that without building relationships, without listening and learning, then um then our children don't know that how we care about them, how we see them, how we regard them. And they're not likely to want to hear what we have to say when we do need to step in and have a difficult conversation with them. And so I I I want to be more of a peacemaker. I'm not always a peacemaker, but I want to be more of a peacemaker. But sometimes we think a peacemaker means I just sit down, I'm quiet, and I don't say anything. Sometimes I don't say anything.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

But the idea of being outward is that that whether I'm not saying anything or I do say something is actually influenced by the person in front of me. What would love require of me to do for them right now? Would it be to listen longer? Would it be to not say anything? Would it be to step up and speak out and say something, right? So I'm trying to be guided by who they are and uh and for whatever reason, um to to to I want to try and you know get a glimpse of what God sees in them, right? To keep that in front of me. And and I I love the opportunity to, you know, that our children have had to receive patriarchal blessings and and for me to give blessings, that was give me just that little glimpse that helps me, you know, as a as a father. Sometimes see the things I don't see, but but I just gotta try and see that and then let that influence my behavior as a father, um, as a husband. Does that help that idea? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

I really love when you talked about just now what would love have me do. I I've never heard that exact phrasing before. So I I haven't either I'm I'm putting that one in my heart. I'm putting that one in my interactions with clients, my interactions with my own family, my interactions with humans. I uh I love that. What would love have me do? That just clears the lens. It does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

And love's not something I pour in me. It's not a behavior. Love is actually seeing others truthfully. Love, it's an or I should say this, love is a natural outcrop of seeing others truthfully. Right. It's it's actually the the uh the part I have to get intentional about is is learning about you and who you are, what you see, and uh and your perspective, and sometimes even how you're experiencing me.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

And if I'm not interested in that feedback again, where am I? Right? No, I want to know. So I want to know how how I measure my effectiveness when my mindset is inward, is usually in in in in terms of output. Like I got my checklist, checked the box, pushed it out the door, did it, did it, right? But if I'm really outward, I'm not just interested in output. I want to know did this help you, right? Or was I help you? And uh and and so I I really we use a um a simple pattern at Urban German, which I love so much. Um, it's found in our outward mindset book, but it's called Sam. We use the acronym SAM, see others, adjust efforts, measure impact. So strive to see others to really understand their objectives, challenges, and needs, and then adjust my efforts in a way that'd be more helpful or in a way that love would require me, right? And then measure impact. Was that helpful to you, right? I I've gotta I I gotta get really curious about that as well. And it turns out that's way more um, not only is it way more effective, but actually more efficient in life. It doesn't it doesn't take as much energy and effort when I'm letting that love influence me as to how I ought to be and work towards you. Um when my mind sets inward and I'm worried about how I show up and how I'm seeing that drives, you know, doing things for everyone else, indulgence, perfectionism. I mean, it just just it it I'm exhausted, I'm overwhelmed. I'm you know, it and and yet when I simply walk forward, um have that heart of peace, that takes a lot less energy. So right.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

It's such a beautiful thing when you can actually see someone, when you are actually truly with someone, you know, and you're not thinking about yourself. It's not easy for me, it's not easy. For me, that's literally one of my things that I spend a lot of time on my knees asking Heavenly Father to help me with. Um, because I do want to know what how others see me. I do want to know if I'm making a difference. I do want to know me, me, me, you know, and so I do. I ask Heavenly Father all the time to help me truly love others, help me to um lift others um and help me to be a light, not because of anything about me, not so that people see me in a certain lens, but because I really do love and I really do want to come from that space, but I I get so caught up in me a lot, and and that's such a struggle, you know. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_04 56:30

One of the things that I and and well, two two parts to that. One is please know being outward means that uh there is a self. I still have a self take care of, I still yeah, but so do others. Does that make sense? It's not that I I still have responsibilities and obligations to do and and a and a person to take care of, but so do others. That's that's the difference. That's the difference. When my mindset's inward, I don't others are not in the equation. The fact that they have to take care of themselves and they have challenges they have, that's not even an equation. I'm not considering that. I'm just doing it in behalf of my own self. And so, um, and you know, we've learned in the recovery world that actually recovery in you know in behalf of self is not sustainable. Um, it's only sustainable when others are in the equation, right? Because that's that's the obligation I feel, the motivation I feel when I'm walking with we, when I'm with others, I feel the obligation to do my best, to give my best, to be my best, right? That's the motivator. That's that's that's what helped you know helps us get there. So so I so yeah, police still, but sometimes we are only thinking of ourselves. And the I learned early on in Arbinger, which was really hard for me at first, but it was I realized sometimes I'm loving, sometimes I'm not. In fact, most of the time, sometimes I'm loving. That makes sense. So we often throw everything in the same bucket and say, Well, I do love and I love them, and I I'm doing this because I love them, but the challenge is I can't see what I'm not loving. And that's where the opportunities are for us to grow. That's the opportunities we are for us to grow. And Dakota, going back to you, you mentioned in my experience as a bishop and I uh um in the Church of Jesus of Christ, Latter-day Saints, and I I one thing I learned there because as a bishop, you know, my responsibility was to represent, you know, that you know, to be in in and create space and be in a space where people could come and have conversations to sometimes difficult conversations with me, to even share burdens that they may have had, and uh to sit in that chair or you know, to be in that space um as a representative of of you know the savior in that moment. Here's the one thing I can tell you. The one thing I can tell you, I never once ever, no matter what anybody came to talk to me about or any of that, ever felt disappointment, um, ever felt like, well, what'd you do, or why'd you do that? Or or never felt to correct. I just felt an overwhelming amount of love for them. Just an overwhelming amount of love. And uh, and I think that's what God feels towards us with all of our challenges and burdens and and everything we're experiencing and the horrible decisions we make and and all of that, right? I just think he feels that that that deep and and the savior as well, who's experienced all that we've experienced and felt all that we've felt, that that that compassion and love for us. And uh, and so can I be more of that? That's what I want to be more of, and that's the quest I think all of us need to be on. And the only way we can kind of get to that space is to start to see when we're not in that space. I think the most important quest we all should be going on is noticing when we're inward and being quick to turn outward. I think if we just say, hey, my quest is to be Christ-like, my crest is to see other people, my quest is then we'll think it's a behavior we put on. We'll think it's just being really nice. We'll think it's just no, actually, I think the most important quest we go on is notice when we're not loving and then think about others until I feel that love and then go and do what love would require me to do in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love the that you pointed out when you were in that space and um all you felt was love and you didn't feel disappointed. I was listening to a podcast several years ago called Beating Saints, and they were talking about how they believe that God isn't disappointed with us, and that was life-changing for me. That was um, I thought about being a mom, and I thought about my own kids, and I thought about times when I know that they felt my disappointment in them. And it was about me. When I was disappointed, it was it was about me. And I really started thinking about the love of God, and it really is whole and it really is perfect, and it isn't, it's not disappointed. Yeah, yeah, it is wanting the very best for us, it's cheering us on, it's you know, definitely God gives us feedback. God has given me uh feedback. I've talked about it on this podcast, and um, it's always from love, it's never from disappointment. And so as we face others, not from a space of disappointment, because I think disappointment is about ourselves, it's it's not about them, you know, and it that I actually listened to it again. I I listened to that episode and then I listened to it again because I was just like, what?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:53

Like the disappointment's like, how does this make me look, right? How's it things aren't going the way that I planned them out to be or where they should go? And and he doesn't feel that, right? He doesn't feel that why should we feel that, right? Umy years ago, the truest measure of a successful parent is not how a child turns out, it's how I am toward my child. It's my love toward them. I can't choose for them, they're on this journey too. And the only thing I can choose is the person I give them to walk with.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

Yeah, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:25

So that's that's what's within my choice, and that's what's that's what's my responsibility is to give them someone that to walk with, that that they can be with and be safe and and love.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

I think it's a beautiful thing that we're always learning and we're always growing. I I you know, I used to hate getting feedback, you know. Like I didn't like hearing ways that I could improve or now I st I I don't love it. I wish I loved it. I don't, I don't love it, but I I do crave it. Does that make sense? Like I because I really do love that we have this life and we never arrive. Like we don't, we don't arrive in this life. We but we can become, and we are becoming, and this life is about becoming, you know, and this life is about learning and growing and and um being molded, and I'm so thankful. I'm I'm so everly thankful for a patient, merciful, loving God who's like, hey Rhonda, let's work on this now, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

Yeah, I have new beginnings every day, all of us do, and I love that, and that's the gift, and so because I've been given that gift every day, I think that's my responsibility to give others that gift as well, to give them new beginnings, to give them that space to grow and learn and get better. And uh so yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Yeah, absolutely, yes. Um, I've been in my own studies and my own uh practices, I've realized that there are two truths, right? We are um we're good enough as we are right now, in this moment, to be worthy of love. And we don't have to change anything about we don't have to change anything about anything in order for us to to be worthy of of love and to be good enough. Um and we have so much potential, and both are true. And we we don't need to abandon one in order to focus on the other or vice versa. Um and we don't need to beat ourselves up when we realize, oh, I'm not reaching my full potential right now, uh because we are enough as we are, and we have so much potential. And when we can recognize our our potential for greatness, that that greatness that's inherent within each of us, when we can recognize that within ourselves and recognize that with within others, I believe that is what um what Jesus Christ meant by saying, love thy neighbor as thyself. They are you can't love your neighbor as yourself if you don't love yourself. And you can't love yourself as uh as your neighbor if if you don't love your neighbor. You need to you need to have love for both, and you need to recognize um again, just that that goodness, that inherent. Yeah um worthiness within each of us to be loved, uh to give and receive love, that we are all good enough as we are, and that there is so much more for all of us that's readily available at our at our fingertips as we as we choose to turn towards um to turn turn towards that love and that potential.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

No, I I what you said there is exactly right, and I love that idea that if that's true of me, that's true of everyone else. Everyone else I'm on this journey with is is is worthy of love, right? Everyone else I'm on this journey with has greater potential, right? Yeah, everyone, yes, and uh not just me, but all of them, right? And that's what you're saying. That's that's exactly right. So can I see the greatness in others? Can I find opportunities to help nurture the greatness in others? Um, can I make sure I extend forth my love? And uh and but you're right. Sometimes again, we live our lives in a combination. Sometimes we're we're inward, sometimes we're outward, sometimes we're just focused on ourselves, sometimes we're focused on on uh on what can we do to you know to include others or to you know take them into account and the decisions we make and move forward. And so our I think it all starts with kind of self-awareness, becoming more and more aware of our our own mindset and our impact that we're having on others. Um that's why what Rhonda said so important. Just the more curious I can get about that, that's those are the those are going to illuminate for me the best opportunities for me to get better, improve, and grow. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Mike. Um I uh in in a quick conclusion, I would love to give you the opportunity to uh share with our listeners how they can uh learn more about Arbinger and Anasazi um uh and what resources might be available to anybody who might be interested in learning more about uh about these organizations. Yeah, Dakota, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:05

Thanks for that opportunity. So, yeah, for Anasazi, it's going to anasazi.org. So an-as-a-zi.org. If you go to anasazi.org, the website will give you all the information. There's anyone out there who um just just wants to explore that possibility or at least learn what we do, um, who has a child that they're concerned about, or even if you're a young adult and you're worried about your journey and will and would like a new beginning, an opportunity for a new beginning, reach out. We're a nonprofit organization. Um, so those who can pay for it do, those who don't, we certainly try and raise money to make that accessible to as many people in need as possible. So, so that's certainly and and if you're someone who likes to contribute to nonprofits, obviously Anasazi is a great place to give. It really does impact people's lives and and uh in amazing ways. And so, and then as far as Arbinger, um, it's Arbinger.com, so arb i-n-g-e-r dot com, arbinger.com, and go to our website. There's a lot of ways to interact on that website. I always tell people the best way to start with Arbinger is pick up one of the books, Leadership and Self-Deception, Anatomy of Peace. Leadership and Self-Deception is one of the top leadership books in the world. It's an easy read, it's a story. Um, that's a great place to start if you're thinking about your work environment. If you're thinking about home and family anatomy of peace, it's an easy read as well. Read the book. If you like it, you like the principles, they resonate with you, then attend one of our public workshops. That's probably the easiest way to jump in and learn more about um the work that we do and how it could impact your organization, um, what that might look like for your organization going forward. So thanks for that opportunity to share that. Really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

Of course, of course. And then, of course, um for uh a final conclusion, really, is in your own words, how do you believe that we can all be more unified on our walk uh through life together?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

Um I I just think try and learn more about each other. Don't make assumptions, don't don't make judgments so often. Just get curious, just learn more about others, provide opportunities and space to learn about people. Um, I um Bob Gay, who um partner being capital and was a general authority in the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, um, he I had him in front of a group of students one time who, you know, his life is bigger than I mean, his social impact, everything he does, business world, everything is huge. And one of the students said, How do you stay so houred? You seem like the most hour person I ever met. And I love this. He just said, Look, my only quest every day is that no one in my path goes unnoticed. So, my only pass quest every day is that no one in my path goes unnoticed. And I love that because I watch him, I watch him interact as officer across the mine here. I just watch him interact with people and he stops. He just wants to get curious about you for a moment. And that, and and everyone in his path feels seen. They feel like they I somebody just saw me, right? And uh, and I can do that. When he said my path, I can do that. I maybe can't do that for the whole world, but I certainly can be better about that when I go home tonight. I can certainly be better about that with the two or three people I interact with. I can certainly do better with that with the you know conference call I have later this afternoon with my team, right? I can do better at that and uh where people feel seen and noticed and matter, right? So creating that space to learn and get curious about others. Don't make assumptions, not them.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:53

Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. I know you are like a super busy person, and I thank you for being a part of this.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:03

Well, thank you for doing this. Thank you for the work you're doing with this podcast. And uh I sure love you both. Absolutely love you both. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

We love you so much. Thank you so much, Mike, for joining us. And thank you for joining us for another episode of I'll walk with you until next time. Lead with love. We love you. Have a wonderful day. All right, thanks.